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Jack Pine
01-09-2011, 07:05 AM
This is a continuation of a thread I started in the Barnett section that got off topic and out of control, my appologies again.

Longhair if you're still there, again, it looks like for all intents and purposes Crosman might be out of the crossbow business, if for no other reason, they have shifted this responsibility to Centerpoint. I have seen this sort of thing before and it looks like Crosman would like to distance themselves from the crossbow market so they have formed a subsidiary or shifted this product line to an already-existing subsidiary hoping to keep their good name from being associated with it and getting muddied up.

As I mentioned, I got on the link you provided and the crossbows are not priced, but the scopes are. Hmmmm On the Crosman site, the crossbows are displayed with MSRPs, but the product is clearly labeled to be not for sale. Hmmmm Maybe I'm just trying to make 2+2 to add up to 6 but it looks suspicious to me, and frankly, given the trouble with my Crossman, is not such a bad idea IF THEY FIX FURTHER PROBLEMS BEFORE THEY RELEASE MORE PRODUCT. Seems like they have had a serious quality control breach somewhere along the line. I would like to be privy to any firings or demotions in the Crosman organization recently, just might tell us more than we're hearing in the open.
A ><>

Longhair
01-09-2011, 09:38 AM
OK. Maybe I can help straighten out your thinking.

CenterPoint is a NEW division of Crosman. It was formed as an archery specific division, and the new name was to get away from the stigma of them being "just a BB gun" manufacurer. Two years ago, if you went into a bow shop and asked about a Crosman crossbow, the folks behind the counter would ask,"The BB gun maker?" And they would typically frown and make some snied remark. They were seen as a toy company and nobody took them seriously...hence the birth of CenterPoint.

So, they formed a new division. They originally hired Scott Alread to head up the new operation, but he has left, and I have no further difinative insight as to the details of his employment. As far as I know, he has been the only major player change at the company, and he left, he wasn't fired. I still deal with Beth McClung for my customer service, just as I always have.

Side Note: I had the opportunity to talk directly with Scott shortly after the announcement of the formation of CenterPoint and his subsequent hiring. He ran down a list of where each piece of each component of their bows were produced, and EVERY PART and EVERY PROCESS of their bows are MADE AND PERFORMED IN THE USA.

As I stated in the other thread, I've had to deal with their CS a few times. They really seemed to appreciate my contact and feedback on their product. They were very receptive, and appeared to be hungry for impressions from everyday consumers. THEY ARE LISTENING! The crappy trigger was one of my beefs, and it wasn't long after, the new R1 models came out with (suprise!) a new seriously improved trigger.
So if you have a complaint, or just some worthwhile feedback (not just sniveling), then by all means get in touch with them. They are committed to taking care of you, as a means of building a positive reputation for their new division. You can bash them all you want on online forums, and whine about what you don't like, but don't expect any improvement if you never inform the company directly of the issues that concern you.

As far as the website info confusion...
They are a new division. And as such, their website is constantly undergoing tweaks. It wasn't until just recently that the website didn't just re-direct you to the old site. It takes time to implement site changes, and with hunting season just now wrapping up around the country, along with the trade shows and the introduction of new/improved products, they honestly have better things to occupy themselves with than relatively unimportant site glitches or updates. It might easily change over the next month or two, as things out in the public eye slow down enough for them to get back to work on design and manufacturing changes. Site updates are not immediate, and of all the new stuff shown at the ATA show this week, you can find precious little info on any manufacturers sites regarding their new stuff. It should not be taken as a reflection of their commitment.

It might be wrong to use the consumers as sounding board for product development. But if they wait, and work out all the bugs, so as not to release anything that isn't "perfect", then they will surely miss the boat entirely. It seems as though most manufacturers are functioning in that manor. And the ones that don't, don't have anything available to purchase yet (Gearhead being a prime example....shown at the ATA for the last two years, and still no product out).

I'd like to have my cake and eat it too, but that simply isn't reality.

Jack Pine
01-09-2011, 12:11 PM
Shoot, here I was thinking buying a defective product was something to squawk about.

Anyway, I really don't care about the internal affairs of Crosman or Centerpoint, that was just thinking out loud on my part.

I just want the product and quality I thought I was buying, and Monday I'll forward it to Crosman archery warranty department for review. You're probably right about them taking care of this. And if they do, I'll be the first to say so. Time will tell.
Jack ><>

semperfi1970
01-13-2011, 12:20 PM
The Crosman plant is about 30 miles from my house and no I do not work there. I have many friends that do work there. The reason for the web site listing the crossbows as not for sale is that they are filling large big box store orders they have committed to. If one wants to purchase one just go to the walmart site and buy one for less than the stated price on the crosman site. Gotta love the power of the big box bulk buy. I can go to the factory store and buy one but why would I do that if wallyworld can get me one cheaper. The customer service remains the same regardless of where you buy it. As far as Crosman crossbows muddieng up the good name of Crossman that is silly at best. A Crosman crossbow is in my opinion as good or better as any brand out there in the same price range but made in the USA. I know they are made in the usa because my buddies build them in Bloomfield NY not assemble them in Bloomfield NY. Yes I support the Crossman company as it is a local mainstay in the area. Things are hard enough for NY based companies without folks creating misleading threads in forums based on suspission and self proclaimed knowledge.

God bless America

Jack Pine
01-13-2011, 01:43 PM
Yes I support the Crossman company as it is a local mainstay in the area. Things are hard enough for NY based companies without folks creating misleading threads in forums based on suspission and self proclaimed knowledge.

God bless America

Semper Fi,
I am also glad Crossman is an American-made product employing American workers, but if you will look at the pictures, it's easy to see that a bent track is not just a suspicion, it is concrete evidence.

Any knowledge I have of the Crosman product isn't "self proclalimed" as you say, it is because I own one. I only speak of what I see, not what I wish I saw. I am not going to whitewash a badly-made product just because business is bad.

The product is what it is, if you are happy with yours, I am happy for you.

Maybe I just got the only bad one, but I doubt it. If you were to read the review on crossbow review dot com [I think that's it] you will see that they also had concerns about the bent track, but were told by Crosman that it doesn't affect accuracy. Talk about spin! Please don't pee on my shoe and tell me it's raining. I would like to see Crosman convince one of their air rifle customers that a bent barrel won't affect accuracy.

I am not going to say that it is a good product and then have someone buy one, see the defect in the stock and then think I'm either a liar, blind, or don't know what I'm talking about. Some people can't afford to throw $300 or more away on a bad product, I think we all have a reasonable expectation of decent quality for that kind of money.

If Crosman is still in the crossbow business then I made a mistake. I thought [hoped] they might possibly put production on hold while they got the problem fixed and maybe they have [I hope].

If a person saw the defect I have documented before they bought it, they would not buy it as it is. I know I wouldn't have, I would have put a couple hundred more together and bought a higher-quality product.

Funny how what one person calls an honest evaluation or product review, another calls suspicion, bashing, etc.

I would think anyone contemplating a crossbow purchase would like to hear the truth about it, and that's exactly what I did; I told the truth about it for the benefit of those who can't physically see the product. I am sorry if the truth about this product offends you, it certainly offends me that I bought a product that is not the quality I had hoped for or expected. If the product were higher quality, business just might be better.

I can't even sell the thing knowing what I know about it; I wouldn't do that to someone for the sake of a few bucks.

Monday I sent a letter to Crosman outlining my concerns with the quality and usability of the product. I'm hoping to hear back in a week or 2. If they make it right, I will be on here shouting from the housetops what a great company Crosman is, and hope I can report that they have their QC issues straightened out, but for now, all I can see is the product with the issues it has, which are plain to see for anyone honest enough to look at the product or pictures.

Jack ><>

Jack Pine
01-13-2011, 03:11 PM
Not 10 minutes ago, a lady named Jan DeLong called me from Crosman. She, at least thought I knew what I was talking about, after reading my letter and viewing the pix I sent, agreed there is a problem with my crossbow. She said they had never seen one as bad as mine, and is sending a pre-paid UPS label to send mine back. She also said they are going to replace it and make sure the track is right before they do. I am cautiously optimistic that there will be a good outcome and my faith in the product and company will be restored. Several things strike me about this situation:

1 She was honest enough to look at the evidence and admit a problem.
2 She is willing to do something about it.
3 If something is not right, you have a responsibility to speak up, even when it's not popular, even when well-meaning people criticize you for it.
4 Whitewashing, denying, or ignoring a problem doesn't make it go away.
5 It is possible I was wrong about the whole Crosman process. If I am supplied with a product worthy of their name, it will prove that I was and I will fully and freely admit it, after all, anyone, whether myself or Crosman can make a mistake, and it just may have been an anomaly that a bad one got past them.

As I said, I am cautiously optimistic, what has been promised hasn't happened yet, but I believe it will.

A ><>

Longhair
01-13-2011, 03:16 PM
OK. I think that I can set your mind at ease, if you listen to reason.

I have two Teton stocks. They are each slightly different, but both are the original Crosman Teton, not the newer R1.

I checked what you are looking at along the top of the rail, and found it on both stocks.
However.......
They are correct in saying that it won't effect accuracy. Your arrow shaft doesn't ride up there. It lays in the track machined between the rails. Those rails could be scalloped up where you're looking, and as long as the actual flight track was machined straight between them the accuracy wouldn't ever be in question.
On both stocks that I checked, the arrow shaft lays perfectly flat in the track. There is no belly or bulge under the shaft anywhere it's entire length. Until you pull the riser and check it with a known straight shaft (I prefer carbon...it can't be bent), you won't know if you have a legimate gripe, other than something that is a virtually invisible cosmetic glitch.

I'll wager that your only real accuracy issue/problem is with that scope. Since I've swapped mine out, I have the bow I always wanted.

Jack Pine
01-13-2011, 04:19 PM
OK. I think that I can set your mind at ease, if you listen to reason.

I have two Teton stocks. They are each slightly different, but both are the original Crosman Teton, not the newer R1.

I checked what you are looking at along the top of the rail, and found it on both stocks.
However.......
They are correct in saying that it won't effect accuracy. Your arrow shaft doesn't ride up there. It lays in the track machined between the rails. Those rails could be scalloped up where you're looking, and as long as the actual flight track was machined straight between them the accuracy wouldn't ever be in question.
On both stocks that I checked, the arrow shaft lays perfectly flat in the track. There is no belly or bulge under the shaft anywhere it's entire length. Until you pull the riser and check it with a known straight shaft (I prefer carbon...it can't be bent), you won't know if you have a legimate gripe, other than something that is a virtually invisible cosmetic glitch.

I'll wager that your only real accuracy issue/problem is with that scope. Since I've swapped mine out, I have the bow I always wanted.


LH,

I will give you the respect of not addressing you in a condescending manner such as "if you will listen to reason" or suggesting your thinking needs straightening out somehow.

Because of my respect for you and your opinion, I will not say something condescending to you like "I was shooting crossbows before you were born" or something similar, I would prefer to address you with more respect, I would prefer to be more diplomatic.

Everyone knows that if you press down on your arrow and it moves downward, it must have room under it. My arrows move downward. I have seen it on my bow, and because it is my bow, you have not.

If a string follows an up and down track, it will impart up and down motion to the arrow, just as an improperly cocked crossbow will impart side motion to an arrow. Now this might not be the total problem, but whether it is the problem or not, Crosman has agreed to fix the problem. As far as I'm concerned, anything else is splitting hairs.

I don't know about the scope, never had one go bad before, never even considered it until you mentioned it, but now I think you're right or at least could be. Easy fix if that's it.

Oh, and regardless of whether it affects accuracy or not, it looks bad and for the cost, it could have been done better, if you can't admit that, then there is no sense beating a dead horse. Yes, even the looks count. If I went to buy a new Remington or Ruger and saw a machine gouge on the barrel, whether the gouge affected accuracy or not, it would still look bad, not up to Rem or Ruger standards, not something I could proudly show to someone and say "This is my new Rem, ain't she a beaut", and I would select another rifle, I think you might too. Can we at least agree on that?

A ><>

Longhair
01-13-2011, 04:59 PM
No condescension or disrespect intended.

I also did not intend to imply that your bow couldn't be defective somehow, Mearly that on two others that I personally checked, had only part of the same issue. And that if all you were looking at was the top of the rail, the issue may not be what it appeared to be.

You will be pleased with the service that you get from Crosman. Each time that I've delt with them, I had what I needed within three days. Their aim really is to have happy customers.

As far as the scope goes....it threw me for nearly a year. I've only ever had one scope behave similarly, and that was almost 20 years ago. I junked it out and never had another problem in that instance too.

And unless you're into your 70's, it isn't likely that you were hunting with anything before I was born. If my beard gets any more white, I can be a skinny Santa. http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f306/boot_the_grime/smilies/oldman.gif

Jack Pine
01-13-2011, 05:11 PM
No condescension or disrespect intended.

I also did not intend to imply that your bow couldn't be defective somehow, Mearly that on two others that I personally checked, had only part of the same issue. And that if all you were looking at was the top of the rail, the issue may not be what it appeared to be.

You will be pleased with the service that you get from Crosman. Each time that I've delt with them, I had what I needed within three days. Their aim really is to have happy customers.

As far as the scope goes....it threw me for nearly a year. I've only ever had one scope behave similarly, and that was almost 20 years ago. I junked it out and never had another problem in that instance too.

And unless you're into your 70's, it isn't likely that you were hunting with anything before I was born. If my beard gets any more white, I can be a skinny Santa. http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f306/boot_the_grime/smilies/oldman.gif


Nope, "only" 63, but shooting crossbow since late 60s/early 70s, hunting long before that. Actually, calling the Wham-o Powermaster a crossbow is a stretch compared with the equipment of today.

A ><>

Longhair
01-13-2011, 05:28 PM
I've got siblings as old and older than you.
And you have me on crossbows by about 10yrs. I picked up a Barnett Wildcat in '79. Before that, I shot verticals, starting with a longbow that was taller than I was (which I still have).

Really, in the 70's, guns were far more important. I bought into a gun shop in '76, and spent the next two years at school for gunsmithing in Colorado.

Back on topic...
Let us know how quickly Crosman gets back to you, and the remedy. It will be interesting.

semperfi1970
01-15-2011, 06:01 AM
Arbalist, after about 50 rounds or so out of my Teton I had found that the four screws in the sides of the scope mount were a little loose as well as the screw under the trigger guard. I had tightened them and used blue locktite. They have stayed tight so far. I was starting to chase arrows before I had found this. I had also mounted the scope back on the weaver rail so it was not out on the unsupported portion of the rail. Im not a fan of plastic weaver rails so this may have been just for my piece of mind. I hope Crosman takes good care of you, as they should.

Jack Pine
01-15-2011, 06:21 AM
Arbalist, after about 50 rounds or so out of my Teton I had found that the four screws in the sides of the scope mount were a little loose as well as the screw under the trigger guard. I had tightened them and used blue locktite. They have stayed tight so far. I was starting to chase arrows before I had found this. I had also mounted the scope back on the weaver rail so it was not out on the unsupported portion of the rail. Im not a fan of plastic weaver rails so this may have been just for my piece of mind. I hope Crosman takes good care of you, as they should.

Semper Fidelis

I noticed also what you are talking about about the 4 screws. I use crazy glue for studlock, works great but you have to work fast. I also noticed the 2 screws on the side and 1 on the bottom that secure the trigger box can be tightened more every day. This might be due to compression of the composite material, so I would advise to put a small washer the same size as the head under these screws and then studlock them and not tighten them further unless they somehow come loose. Every crossbow I ever had wanted to shake itself apart and so it would benefit anyone who owns 1 to examine and re-wrench it often. As for Crosman, I [now] believe they will do the right thing.
A ><>